Remember a couple months ago when I decided to opt out of that FR-S recall? 

"Decay buys too many beaters" (decay) 03/08/2019 at 13:56 • Filed to: fr-s

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Citing fears about the complexity of the fix and how easy it is to screw up the oiling system?

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Looks like I was right, there have been a not insignifigant number of post recall engine failures. Forums are pretty much dead these days, but there is still a thread on ft86 right now with 17 post recall engine failures. Most of them involve rod knock.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133095

There is an article on the drive that came out today that goes into detail about what exactly is happening.

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I’ll be curious to see if Toyota of Subaru issue a statement on the issue.

E90M3 > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:06

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Most of them involve rod knock.

Ah, so it is a true Subaru after all.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:13

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These issues mean that a Galaxy Blue Silica BRZ is no longer an option for me. I know it is mostly affecting the Scions serviced by Toyota but I still wouldn’t be able to trust a car that has had the recall performed, especially with how hard I will drive it. It’s sad because GBS is easily my favorite Subaru color ever but it’s 2013 only meaning unless I find one through a private sale that hasn’t had the work done I simply can’t trust it .

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:20

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Is it only the Toyota versions getting screwed up or  is it happening to the Subarus as well? Just wondering if it comes down to Toyota techs not being used to the engine.

Decay buys too many beaters > E90M3 03/08/2019 at 14:21

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Not quite, no headgaskets yet!

Decay buys too many beaters > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 03/08/2019 at 14:22

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The vast majority is Toyota, but 2 of the 17 reported on the forum are Subaru. 

WRXforScience > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 03/08/2019 at 14:23

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It really just depends on the individual dealer and how good their techs are. I’m glad mine is a 2014 and I don’t have to deal with all this (I had my wiring harness updated under warranty to fix the ignition coil problem which wasn’t fixed until the 2015 cars).

Decay buys too many beaters > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 03/08/2019 at 14:23

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Yeah, it would be a deal breaker for me as well. Especially with all of these cars out of warranty now

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 03/08/2019 at 14:24

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It's mostly cars serviced by Toyota but there have been some Subaru failures too.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:31

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It’s amazing how quick a car can go from “basically bulletproof” to “avoid at all costs”. Really sad to see the best color ever offered on the BRZ become part of that later category.

Makes my Dad look pretty smart swapping his 2013 for a 2017 Series.Yellow a year and a half ago.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:37

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I would trust a Subaru Tech who has recently replaced a couple hundred short blocks due to excessive oil consumption. A toyota tech unless they were previously a subaru tech won’t have the experience to know what the hidden issues are.

Arrivederci > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 03/08/2019 at 14:37

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GBS was offered on the FRS for a couple years after 2013 as Ultramarine.

Decay buys too many beaters > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 03/08/2019 at 14:38

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To be fair, the failure rate of valve springs in affected cars is something like 0.1%. I can live with that.

But like all things, that old saying of “don’t buy first model year” holds true. Just sucks that subaru took away GBS. I’ve got the same color on my FRS and it’s lovely in person.

Decay buys too many beaters > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 03/08/2019 at 14:40

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In any case, the risk of valve spring failure is VERY low. I still would sleep better just risking that than having the engine opened up at all. Flat engines are never the same after they’ve been apart.

promoted by the color red > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:41

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Our affordable Japanese sports car options are either:

ToyoBaru that grenades engines

Miata that grenades gearboxes

Solution: Swap  the ND Miata engine into the ToyoBaru

Decay buys too many beaters > promoted by the color red 03/08/2019 at 14:43

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Or ...$200 junkyard NA M iata that will literally go forever

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:45

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The problem is a dealer can't sell it without performing the recall work. So that means you have to find one private sale that hasn't had the work done. I don't see the springs as a real risk, it's just a large number of them are going to have the recall completed and be complete unknowns.

Decay buys too many beaters > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 03/08/2019 at 14:47

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Ooof, yeah, didn’t think on that. Makes sense that all the ones sold through dealers would be required to have it done 

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:52

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As someone who is casually shopping these for my next daily, I have to say my confidence in the car has been shaken more and more as I hear the stories of them getting older .

But I don’ t fit in a Miata so... :(

BigBlock440 > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 14:57

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There’s people that think you shouldn’t be able to register your car because you skip out on a recall.  This is yet another reason those people are wrong.

Decay buys too many beaters > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 03/08/2019 at 14:58

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M y ‘13 has been about as reliable a track car as I could ask for. Sort out the oil cooling and get one made after Feb ‘13 (there was a factory tune issue that burned off direct injector seals) or a ‘14 which avoids this valve spring issue all together. And they really are solid and cheap to maintain.

Decay buys too many beaters > BigBlock440 03/08/2019 at 14:58

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California requires it for registration. Those poor souls

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:06

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Yeah, I’m not too deterred yet, but like you said, seems like you’ve gotta make sure you get the right one.

I’ve heard the “buy 2015 or newer” before, and of course, those are more expensive since they are newer.

Not totally ready to pull the trigger yet, still having fun with my current car, but maybe later in the year if I can find some lower mileage ones.

GoodIdeaAtTheTime > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:09

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We can’t sell a car (dealer) with open recalls here. 

Decay buys too many beaters > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 03/08/2019 at 15:10

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Yeah, 2015-2016 is the real right answer. They sorted out all the mechanical issues from the early cars, but don’t have some of the software issues from the 2017+ cars (they can be tricky to tune)

I’ve got a low mile 2015 motor sitting in the corner of my garage as a “just in case”, bought it back when mine was tur bocharged as cheap insurance.

LongbowMkII > promoted by the color red 03/08/2019 at 15:13

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2GR into the toyobaru, make your own supra

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Arrivederci 03/08/2019 at 15:15

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That is true however I much prefer the styling of the BRZ over the FRS. The FRS also didn’t get a lot of the premium features I want from the BRZ such as the Alcantara interior, heated seats, and climate control, all things that came standard on the Limited trim of the BRZ. Fog lights also seem to be somewhat of a rarity on FRS’s, a feature that I sorely miss on my Mini.

Arrivederci > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 03/08/2019 at 15:29

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That’s all true, but if you value GBS more than those features, you can still have it. If you value the features, you can have your BRZ in WRB :).

I preferred the styling and content of the BRZ as well, which is why I owned one over the FRS.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:29

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how is this a recall in the first place? i thought recalls were safety equiptment related. how is a valve spring issue safety related? i would have thought this would be a TSB or something.

Decay buys too many beaters > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 03/08/2019 at 15:31

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The claim, is that the valve spring failure can result in engine shut down and a loss of power steering. There are no reported  incidents where this actually resulted in a crash though

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:32

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So glad I've waited on this, helps my BRZ has been in storage for the winter. Sounds like the issues are coming from cars that were taken to Toyota dealers for the work, but I think I'll be waiting a while longer to take it in at least until there's more info available. 

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:32

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A friend of mine had it done and is looking to sell his car now. Lots of little problems that would require an endless fight with the dealer to fix.

Decay buys too many beaters > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 03/08/2019 at 15:34

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And an uphill battle no doubt with the car being out of warranty. Hell, a fair few of the people whose cars developed knock within 200 miles of the fix are having issues getting toyota to cover repairs. 

Decay buys too many beaters > Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ 03/08/2019 at 15:37

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I still can’t believe they even issued  a recall for such a small likelihood of failure. Everyone I know local with a 2013 is straight up not going to have it done. 

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:39

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seems like they took the long way round for that explanation lol

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Arrivederci 03/08/2019 at 15:42

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WRB or White is my preference right now. Not sure how the white would hold up to cone strikes though.

Boxer_4 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 03/08/2019 at 15:42

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Rule #1 of owning a badge engineered car; always get it serviced by the dealer of the manufacturer who actually designed and built it.

We always took our Geo Prizm to a Toyota dealer.  

Arrivederci > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 03/08/2019 at 15:45

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Every cone mark I cleaned off my DGM came off without a fuss.  However, I’d bet that’s probably the best color for hiding it!

punkgoose17 > GoodIdeaAtTheTime 03/08/2019 at 15:49

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Shit! N ow the FR-S will be the new RX-8; values will plummet because engine failure is likely.

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:49

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Yeah, I’m probably going to skip it for now as well. I don’t know if anyone has yet to have a valve spring fail pre-fix. Ever since the valve spring issue was originally reported on I had a gut feeling the repair would cause more harm than good. By the time a valve spring does fail on mine I’ll already have started work on a new engine for the car. 

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 15:52

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My outback had the short block replaced about 30,000 miles ago, they did a good job and I can’t tell any difference.

Decay buys too many beaters > Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ 03/08/2019 at 15:52

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I think someone on the forums did a scrub of the issues subsection and found a total of 2 verified spring failures on the forums over the past 5 years. Still, it’s a tiny number compared to the rocker arm or cam code problems.   

Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 16:05

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I feel like I’ve been really lucky with mine. I haven’t had a single issue with mine since I’ve bought it, with the only CEL I got was because I was overdue replacing the spark plugs, and the only major issue was the throw out bearing failed prematurely. Outside of that it’s just been routine upkeep . My BRZ hasn’t lived a gentle life either, I drive it at 10/10ths as often as I can and it’s been through a large hailstorm, been rear ended at low speed, and had an unavoidable hit with a coyote but the only real wear it shows is cosmetic.

ttyymmnn > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 16:59

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I know very little about engines and such, but when my 2003 Odyssey blew a head gasket, my Honda guy said that it would be better to replace the whole lump with a like-mileage donor than to tear it apart and put it back together again. That’s what I did, and 100,000 miles later, I’m glad I went that route. It actually didn’t cost near as much as I expected, but that’s another story.

Decay buys too many beaters > ttyymmnn 03/08/2019 at 17:05

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For a common engine, that doesn’t surprise me. A lot of times a motor is never quite the same after it’s been torn down and rebuilt. You can certainly do it, but doing it right takes time. 

ttyymmnn > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 17:09

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I still think that the donor engine I got is better than the original one. 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 18:40

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“IT IS VITAL THAT TECHNICIANS TAKE THEIR TIME.”

Refuses to pay technicians for more than 6 hours of work even if it takes 12.

Seriously though, this whole thing is a total fucking mess and it’s all Subaru’s fault. They cannot design an engine to save their lives.

Here’s the stupidity in question with the timing cover removed.

Oil flows down from the filter adapter mounted to the timing chain cover, under the plate, floods the timing chain area, into the crank-driven oil pump mounted on the timing chain cover. This piece here:

That’s with all of the facing plates removed. Here it is fully assembled.

SUBARU, YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS . See that port down at the bottom there? That’s the pickup for the entire goddamn engine. Like. So.

Like I said: SUBARU YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS. This is a FUCKING TERRIBLE design. If you are going to do shit like this, YOU DO NOT ATTACH THE PUMP TO THE TIMING COVER. You attach it to the block, so that you don’t POTENTIALLY GRENADE THE ENTIRE ENGINE WITH A LITTLE RTV. And you sure as SHIT do not have oil passages basically floating out in the middle of goddamn nowhere with no way to gasket or seal them properly!

And yes, this means in addition to THAT stupidity, the FA20 effectively has two oil pans - the oil pan and the timing cover! And you’re having people who have NO idea that this is the ONLY OIL PICKUP ON THE ENGINE do repairs on it, without warning them that HEY THIS IS THE ONLY OIL PICKUP. And of course, giving them HALF the time they need to do it.

Decay buys too many beaters > Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ 03/08/2019 at 18:41

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And that TOB was a known issue as well, something about the wrong grease if I recall. Mine is the same, lots of track time, lots of 10/10ths and besides melting a few coilpacks haven’t had issues. 

Decay buys too many beaters > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 03/08/2019 at 18:49

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This needs to be sent as an open letter to Subaru.

Yeah, the cover coming off was what had me and others who know about how the engine is laid out hard noping on this fix. We’ve (old timers on the forums) watched for years as fresh “fully built” motors die before finishing break in miles due to oil starvation . It is a system designed with zero serviceability. Then you hand it to tech that is not totally familiar with the layout, underpay them, and press them to get it done quickly. 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Decay buys too many beaters 03/08/2019 at 18:59

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It’s a fucking shit design period . Their design is so fucking awful, it’s a miracle it has sufficient oil pressure PERIOD, unless they’re pressurizing the whole damn timing case. This setup is so abysmally bad, I would have to re-engineer the shortblock to get enough oil pressure and flow to support sustained high RPM.

Which is why they are so pissy about 0W20 water. It’s the only way they can get enough oil to not starve in bone stock trim, and even then, not enough under sustained load. Which is why they roach journals, besides the idiocy of trying to feed two from one port. Instead of failing at volume or pressure, they found a way to fail at BOTH. Which is made worse by the fact that they cook the oil at 285F+. (Oil is rated at 212F, starts breaking down at ~260F .)

Not saying that I could design a block from zero - I couldn’t - but I would have caught half this shit before the first casting.

Jarrett - [BRZ Boi] > Doge_Supreme drives a BRZ 03/08/2019 at 21:31

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As a new owner, this comment is encouraging!

soundman98 > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 03/09/2019 at 00:34

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I'm hoping these drop down to the $5k mark for some stupid reason so i can start collecting them.

Variance > ttyymmnn 03/09/2019 at 16:13

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The other part of that is that some engines are extremely sensitive to overheat conditions. Depending on how much coolant you lost when the HG blew, it’s possible that you could have had localized warpage in the siamese area between the cylinder bores. If so, after the rebuild you would have been chasing inexplicable coolant loss and/or misfires until eventually replacing the head or the whole engine anyway .

RedSkyBlueOcean > Decay buys too many beaters 03/10/2019 at 14:48

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So meone else said this on another article about this same subject. It seems that most of these mistakes are coming from Toyota technicians that are unfamiliar with S ubaru engines. If this happens with Subaru engines, I can only imagine what's gonna happen when the new Supra has troubles with its BMW designed engine.